Episode 7: Dragons

[originally posted to Patreon on 8/11/25]

Transcript:

F: Welcome back to our monster series. We today are talking about my favorite monster, the Dragon.

S: I thought I thought it was your husband. Okay.

F: Ah ha ha. So funny. No.

S: That's what I'm here for.

F: It's the dragon. I'm very excited. I love dragons, of course, as a, you know, like, slightly too precocious bookish child. Anything with a dragon on the cover was something that I read. I was like, what's that? Don't care. It's got a dragon. And I wanted dragons to be real so badly. I mean, I also loved dinosaurs. I feel like there was like, you know, a crossover, dinosaur loving, dragon loving children with no friends.

S: Yeah. Because, like, you know, they told you dinosaurs are real. And so you're like, all right, just tweak them a bit, you know, add.

F: Some wings, add some flames. Yeah. Come on.

S: Yeah. Dragons are weird, you know? Um, there's so many fucking renditions of, like, dragons. Why do all fucking civilizations think of dragons?

F: I wonder if there's, like. Isn't there some sort of theory? Maybe I've just made this up. I've just made up a new theory, or I'm stealing it. That, like, it's part of our weird collective consciousness from when we were like, you know, mammals that lived alongside dinosaurs, but then also. Oh, does that make sense? Because wasn't it like ninety percent of the world's population was wiped out with that asteroid and like, so it doesn't really make sense.

S: But, you know, the one I've read is like.

F: Oh, reading. We're reading now.

S: Also very surprising about like how much academic writing is written about dragons. It's crazy. Oh, there's like dragons and art. Dragons and history. Dragons as even as financial. Um, they call them Dragon King events. Anyway, there's like, a theory about it being, um, an amalgamation of all the things that used to hunt apes. So snakes, panthers and fucking, uh, eagles.

F: So interesting.

S: Any combination of those kind of three things leads to dragons, and we all kind of fear them from the time we were not the apex predators.

F: Wow.

S: Something like that. But, you know, a lot of people theorize a lot of dumb shit. So it's.

F: I feel like that was a pointed comment about my collective memory Dragon dinosaur theory. And I am offended. Thank you very much.

S: It's true, when the little mammals used to live next to the dinosaurs.

F: We co-existed, right? No. Okay, fine. Well.

S: Come on, like the church tells you. like where the earth is four thousand to six thousand years old. So we definitely coexisted with.

F: I thought it was only two thousand years old, like, oh, isn't.

S: Only when Jesus, Jesus got here, and then there was nothing before that?

F: Yeah, I.

S: That makes sense.

F: In a couple days I am turning thirty three, which is the age of Christ, as we all know.

S: Right?

F: Which means I have one year to start a cult and then get, you know, crucified.

S: It's actually the age that Christ died, as my mom pointed out to me on my thirty third birthday.

F: Thank you Valentina. We know that's why we call it the Age of Christ. He wasn't like born thirty three.

S: She was like, hello, you are today the age where Christ is died. And I was like, all right, good morning, mother. Thank you.

F: Your mom's awesome. Speaking of dragons and moms, my mom was born the year the dragon and we. And by we, I mean the entire family is always called her the Dragon lady because she's terrifying sometimes fire breathing. Um, she's got this really scaly skin. Um, I've seen her just, like, chomp the head off of, you know, men in general. Pretty cool. Um, but that's a big thing. It's the year of the Dragon, right? That's like a massive. I read that it was the. It's the most like there are more people born in the year of the Dragon than any other within Chinese astrology. Because people think it's a good like it's good luck and it'll bring good fortune to have a child during that year. So they're like specifically conceiving to have a year of the Dragon Child. Yeah.

S: They go next year, the year of the Dragon Girl.

F: Once every. twelve years. Bitch. We're not having sex.

S: Get your fallopian tubes ready.

F: Yeah. So that's what that's which is interesting. But you know, I was also like what is it about every twelve years? But people were just specifically trying only every twelve years.

S: What year are you.

F: I'm you're the monkey. I'm a water monkey. Uh, you.

S: How do you. What's a water monkey?

F: So every.

S: Why is there water and shit?

F: So every like, every year it's on a twelve year cycle. Every twelve years, you know, it's a different animal. But then within your animal, it cycles every five times through the five elements fire, water, wood, metal, earth. I think that's it. I think metal is in there or like something like that. Oh, air. It's not earth and wood. It's like wood and air. Something like that. So I'm a water monkey. My mom's a wood dragon. You what year? Let's see. You were born the year before me. Ninety. Ninety one. Yeah. So you're born the year before me?

S: Uh, so probably water also. And I'm a ram.

F: You're a ram? Yeah, that makes sense. Jesus.

S: No, you are what you like to bang.

F: This is why. This is why this podcast is going to be. The death of my career as a traditional arts maker is because of comments like that.

S: Well, you know, if you wanted to be a traditional art maker, I don't think we can be friends with Jessica.

F: Says the man who just told me he got into cross-stitch.

S: Yeah, that is pretty, pretty, pretty trad. I would say.

F: That's even a bit like, uh, for me. And I knit so.

S: Well.

F: Anyways.

S: All right, well, we all know what you're fucking cross-stitch present is gonna say.

F: Fuck you, bitch! Yeah.

S: Exactly. How did you fucking know?

F: Right back to dragons. We can't.

S: Keep dragons.

F: Dragons? Okay, if you could have a dragon, what would your dragon look like? What kind of shell would it have? And then, like, what would be its abilities, size, etc..

S: Shell? It's not a fucking turtle.

F: No, but like when you find it, obviously you find it from a shell and it imprints on you like a baby bird.

S: Ah, you mean as in like a dragon egg? Mhm, mhm. I didn't think of dragon eggs actually, which is surprising to me.

F: Love them.

S: Mhm. Um okay. I think it'll be like kind of like a smoking red egg.

F: Ooh.

S: Not too big of a dragon you know like kind of maybe horse sized, maybe a bit bigger a bit bigger. We need to like.

F: Come on, you want to ride it.

S: Yeah. We want to instill fear in people. Um, yeah, I guess maybe two horses. How about that? Is that a good measurement?

F: Double horse.

S: I want a two horse. I want a two horse. Dragon.

F: Well, you know, you measure horses and hands and you measure dragons and horses.

S: That's how. That's how the scale goes. It's progressive scale. Um, yeah, I think, I don't know, like what? Why would you want it to breathe fire? Right. I maybe maybe I'd like it to be, like, kind of really fast, like a transportation dragon, you know? And, um, we, it can telepathically kind of communicate with me so we can have, like, our internal jokes, you know, go like, oh, man.

F: You just stand in there, like, laughing to yourself. Don't worry, guys, my dragon just told me a sick joke. You wouldn't get it, though.

S: Yeah, it's really fast. You know, I go like, all right, go, go fucking, you know, make sure Frankie's late for work or something like that.

F: Wow.

S: Um, but, yeah, I think really fast. Telepathic dragon obviously needs to be fucking rich like a dragon. Nepo. Nepo baby dragon.

F: Nepo nepo baby dragon.

S: It's inherited.

F: I have a hoard.

S: Exactly. It's inherited a big hoard from its mama. Mama dragon, you know. Or its grandpa dragon, I don't know. Um, yeah, something like that. How about you?

F: Well, uh, funnily enough, actually, the first, like, recorded in Western dragon tradition. Um, because I'm a white lady, so I don't really know any others. But the first record of a dragon with a hoard is in Beowulf. The dragon at the end of Beowulf. That's the first time. It's kind of the archetype for all other dragons in Western tradition is this dragon. It could fly, it had fire and it had a hoard. Mhm. Um, so anyways, back to to answer your question, I would I think my mind is going straight to like a big like finding a big shiny green egg green, you know what I mean? That's like a nice deep green. And I'm like, wow, look at that. Is it like a oh, I like pretty stones. I'm just gonna take it home with me. And I'd like it to start out, you know, like the size of a cat, maybe like small cute baby dragon obviously. Also green. Maybe like cool bronze or like copper. Gold kind of accents on it. That'd be cool. Um, and then I think it would quickly get out of hand as to like size. I'd be like, oh my God, so cute. And then all of a sudden it'd be like, fucking massive. And you've seen my garden.

S: Like a Hagrid trajectory.

F: Yeah, yeah. I'm like a Hagrid vibe. Um, we do not support JK Rowling. I feel like we have to say that all the time. Just so people know. We're just millennials. Unfortunately. Yeah. We'd love for, like, it gets out of the way and then. Yeah, I think transportation would love to just ride it around. I mean, can you imagine riding a dragon through the Highlands? It'd be fucking sick. Fuck, yeah, it'd be amazing. It'd be great.

S: Arriving to a job interview via Dragon. You know, just like.

F: Yeah.

S: Yeah. And being like, what? Bitch? You gonna not give me the job.

F: Is it? Is it like self-warming? You know, because, like, it gets cold in Scotland?

S: Oh, one hundred. No, one hundred percent. It's a dragon. I think mine will breathe fire because I would like to go. I don't know, I feel like a dragon. Mythical, magical creature that lives like I'm. A lot of them are, like immortal. They just kind of live forever. I feel like I could go somewhere like, you know, perhaps a place where their entire society is built on stolen land and genocide and then just, like, decimate, you know, any sort of settlers or occupiers with, like, a huge jet engine, fire, flame and my immortal dragon. Like. Yeah, yeah. Send your little drones. And then just like drones gone.

F: All right, I like it. But, you know, you could have any kind of dragon. It could be like a nuclear dragon, you know?

S: That's it. Well, maybe it's just got the power of, you know, the same amount as, like, a nuclear power. But then without the fallout of nuclear radiation, you just want the firepower that you could, like, focus.

F: So. So you have, like, a resistance dragon is what you want. Like you want?

S: Yeah, yeah.

F: To achieve social justice with your dragon.

S: Uh, I mean, it's more like.

F: A dictatorship, but I'm the dictator because I have the dragon. But then I will. But then. Because. Also because I have the dragon. It's sort of like my external conscience. And if I'm like, should I be killing all those people? It's like, maybe not all those people, but you could. We could kill these people. And I'd be like, wow, that's a good point, Dragon.

S: Oh, so? So the dragon has a moral compass also.

F: Yeah, the dragon is the one with the moral compass. Because absolute power corrupts absolutely. And I'm just a puny little human, but a dragon. I'm expecting to have more wisdom than. Than me.

S: It's immortal, you know. It's it's hard. It's, uh.

F: It gets it.

S: Would it be like, you know, I don't know, you could. It can give you some of its blood, and then you could be immortal. You know, Dragon's blood makes you immortal. You don't want to be immortal. You just want to.

F: Know this dragon.

S: For a bit and then die.

F: But I also would, like, expect the dragon to, like, then never again. Like, take another human companion or writer. It would be like just us for my puny little human life. And then, uh. And then the dragon would just, like, go to a mountain or somewhere and collect a hoard and just be like, right, that was me.

S: That's quite cruel.

F: It's not cruel. It's the dragon's own choice. Like we just had such a close bond, you wouldn't get it. Yours is like a horse dragon.

S: Like a two horse dragon. It's a two horse dragon.

F: All right, this is my double-horse Dragon.

S: Also, we have, like me and my dragon communicate telepathically, so.

F: We also communicate. We also communicate telepathically.

S: Oh, your Dragon doesn't speak like this. Oh.

F: Well, it could do that. Dude, have you ever seen the film? Oh, is it Dragonheart? There's a film, uh, where Sean Connery voices a dragon.

S: Why? Why does Sean Connery keep doing these weird fucking things?

F: No, dude, you have to see it. I think it was like nineties. It's sometime when CGI is being brought in, but it's not amazing. But the choice of design for the dragon? Totally fine. Except when it talks. It has very human like lips. So it's just like this Sean Connery speaking dragon with really weird human like lips. I really encourage you to watch it. I think it's called like Dragonheart Dragon. I'm sure my mom and her sisters who are listening to this are only podcast listeners will probably be like, it's this.

S: What kind of shit does a dragon say? Like I will burn your shit down. What the fuck did he say?

F: See, this is

S: We're doing a Sean Connery thing again.

F: So this is how I know that you don't truly love dragons because they are three dimensional characters, okay? They could say whatever they want. They're not just going to say, I'm gonna burn your your shit.

S: He's he's having, like, a I'm having a shitty day. You know, like, ah.

F: Why is it shitty? Yeah. It was like, you know, there was a whole quest. It was like a whole thing. And it was like, uh. But I don't remember what he said. Look, it's been a long time since I saw this, this film.

S: Is there a dragon rider? Also.

F: Of course, there's like some, you know, pathetic. It's always some, like, pathetic eighteen year old dude. It's like I found a dragon, and the dragon really cares about me. And I have to save the realm. And you're like, oh, this guy sucks. I do so much cooler things with the dragon. I think it's the trope you have to hate the guy who has the dragon, or these days, you know, with the romantic trend, people are just fucking dragons, I think. I don't actually know because I don't read these books, but I assume that's what's happening is they're set in a fantasy world. You have sex with dragons.

S: It'll probably be like, you know, like you get off while riding your dragon, you know? I don't think there's, like, actual dragon penetration.

F: I tried to read one of these books and I was like, this is not as dirty as I was expecting. It was kind of tame.

S: What was it? Whatever.

F: What was happening.

S: It wasn't dragons. It was fairies. She was trying to have sex with a fairy, I think. Were they fairies? But they weren't like little cute fairies. They were like, I'm a big, sexy fairy. And you're like, right? I've been to a gay club before. Like, I know what a big, sexy fairy looks like. You know what I mean?

F: Gotcha.

S: Um, anyways, sexy dragons. So also, like, in none. In none of the things I read. Have I heard of sex with Dragons?

F: Um, while meanwhile, when we did the Water Demon one. Water monster ones, you couldn't move for having, you know, sexy water monsters.

S: Look, also, just sex and water generally was was what I was asking about. However, so like since the reptiles do, they just have like a little hole? Do they hold on, hold sex or do like, does a little dragon penis like emerge?

F: You ask? And you know what you're asking.

S: Too many hard technical questions, asking….

F: All the right questions, but I just I don't have the answers. Unfortunately. We got to get a dragon expert on one of these days. We should get any kind of expert on at some point, considering we're experts in nothing.

S: What do you mean? Frankie? Come on, we're experts at talking shit. We like talk shit at Olympic level.

F: That is true. That's that's incredibly true.

S: Okay, so, like what? What's a dragon? Okay. Like, how how do you define a dragon?

F: A dragon is I mean, mostly they're like, you know, big beasts, scaly, kind of vaguely reptilian, with sometimes wings, sometimes no wings, like eastern dragons. Chinese, Japanese, Korean dragons. No wings. Claws. A kind of snake like body. Um. Sometimes fire breathing. I think it's just sort of like. But then there are like subsects. I feel like sometimes people consider things like chimeras or hydras as dragons as well. And maybe they are. Um, yeah.

S: Beards, you know.

F: Oh, sometimes.

S Always have beards. Always.

F: That feels like a very firm thing that you're saying. Always have beards when? Like some. I feel like sometimes they have beards.

S: It's kind of bearded. Bearded dragons. Horns.

F: Horns sometimes, yeah, spiny things.

S: Okay, so what's the distinction between a wyvern and a dragon?

F: Oh, uh, a wyvern, maybe it's like the number of legs or claws or something. I feel like a.

S: Wyvern.

F: Is a number of legs.

S: You knew. Two legs.

F: Yeah. Wyverns are like.

S: Awkward kind of chicken things, you know? They have legs and wings.

F: Yeah, well, they are Welsh. So.

S: Um, you can kind of, like, imagine it stumbling around, you know.

F: Like, have you ever seen runner ducks? Because, you know, like, mallard ducks are kind of like, you know, they're pretty perpendicular to the ground or parallel to the ground. And runner ducks stand up straight. And then when they run, because they don't have any arms, they're like, it's pretty funny.

S: Yeah, it sounds like sounds like that.

F: Yeah. That's what I'm imagining for a wyvern.

S: Huh? Well, you know, the distinction between, like, I think like everything you said before could be considered a dragon until, like, sixteenth century Europe, when they started, you know, obsessing about, like, categorizing everything. And then, you know, it became like, uh, what is a dragon? It's four legs. Fucking wings, beard and horns was is like the the thing.

F: All right. Well and as we know, sixteenth century Europe, they knew everything.

S: They knew everything. Also, my honestly, like my favorite part of all this research is looking at people's interpretations of like what a dragon looks. Because like, they're fucking weird ass crocodiles. Also, like, apparently the word comes from like a mistranslation from Hebrew of like drakon, which was like serpent but also jackal. So like, it got it got really difficult to fucking, you know.

F: Interpret, you know, how much of our, like, world is just based on misinterpretations by some lazy medieval monk? Happens all the time. Or Romans. Romans misinterpreted shit all the time. They'd be like, what'd you say? I don't care, uh, I'm just gonna write down whatever I want.

S: I'm just gonna draw this fucking thing that has the snout of a crocodile and I don't know, fucking ass of a jackal and you know.

F: The ass of a jackal. That actually is how you tell a dragon. They all have jackal asses.

S: That's what I think, man. Um, okay, another question for you. Like, why do Europeans like slaying dragons so much?

F: Well, it's all the representation of, like, I bet you see a real uptick in that shit once Christian Christianity shows up, because it's all about, like, the light defeating the dark. Like, there's so much. It feels like every other fucking saint has a dragon defeating story. It's like either it's a female saint and she, like, cried and prayed to God. Then God was like, kill dragons dead. Or it's like Saint George and his ilk where they just like, rock up, kill a dragon, and everybody's like, would you like to marry this princess? We've got a spare princess.

S: Um, do you know about. Yeah. Do you know about fucking Margaret Saint Margaret?

F: Saint? Is she the one that cried?

S: Well, like there's.

F: Something about tears.

S: Yeah, there's a couple of ones, uh, about Saint Margaret. One she, like goes. She makes the sign of the cross, and the dragon fucking disappears. But my favorite one is the dragon. Like, bites her. And with her head inside the dragon, she utters the Lord's name and the dragon just explodes. So?

F: So does she just say, oh, God.

S: I think like god help me or something like that. She like asks for assistance from..

F: God damn it.

S: Just gets chomped.

S: Down. Jesus fucking Christ.

F: And then they're like, oh, dead.

S: God damn it, Margaret, like two words off. You could have done it, man. Come on, we fucking believe in you.

F: Uh.

S: But, you know, actually, like, surprisingly, um, even kind of like ancient dragons, you know, like Sumerian. Hittite dragons were also slain, like some kind of, um, um, Sumerian like, uh, what's it called? Like formation tales? Uh, beginning of the world tales.

F: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah creation myth.

S: Creation myth. Yeah. It's kind of like once the dragon is kind of. Marduk slays the dragon. And from her, because the dragons are her. Makes the world kind of. So there's always this kind of idea of, like, taming nature or like, you know, like the untamed cosmos versus, like, kind of settled human civilization. And I think that kind of extended into European shit. But yeah, other, other places don't kind of think that.

F: Yeah, I know that in the Greek myths, the first city, Thebes, the founder of Thebes, can't remember his name. His wife's name was Harmonia. Can't remember his name though. Anyways, uh, in order to, like, found the first city, there was something like the slayed a dragon that belonged to the god of War, Aries. And then from the dragon's teeth he sowed, he planted, um, a field and sowed the dragon's teeth. And then from the dragon's teeth, a bunch of men, uh, warriors, like, jumped up out of the ground. And then they all started fighting each other. And I think there was like a handful of them left. And then he was like, we're gonna start a city together. So another dragon. You know how Greeks are.

S: It's pretty cool though, you know? Like, who the fuck thinks of, like, planting teeth?

F: You know how, like, Greeks. Um, um, also, I know the Norse have their, like, you know, it's not really like the the the world serpent isn't. He doesn't necessarily have to do with like, the creation of the world, but he encircles the world. He's so big that he encircles the entire world and bites his own tail and like, you know, an ouroboros. Um, and then he is, you know, destined to come back at the at Ragnarok and fight Thor. But he's like, he is called the World Serpent. I can't remember his name in Old Norse. Apologies, everybody, but you probably didn't want to hear me try to attempt that anyways. It's like jormungandr.

S: Yeah, but it's kind of like this water water serpent thing, you know.

F: It's there's.

S: A lot of it in kind of eastern East Asian, um, traditions also. Um, also legless, wingless. This is kind of like, uh, dragons are like liminal creatures and like two worlds, you know? Um, okay. Well, also, like, kind of dragons are watchers. Yeah. And, like, why why are they always watchers? Why are they always fucking, you know, they, they guard the Golden Fleece. They guard the fucking, um, their own hoards. They guard the what's it called, the golden apples. Also, um, in Greek mythology. So what's what's this thing like? Fucking dragons being like keepers of things. Watchers, um.

F: Keepers of things that are gold, though.

S: Mm.

F: All those. The golden fleece, the golden apples of the Hesperides, the, you know, treasure gold. The keepers of valuable golden riches. I don't know, I find that quite interesting. I mean, I think, again, it has more to do with, like, Western dragons because eastern dragons. That's almost like such a it's such a low level, um, Like base money related occupation for a dragon. And of course the Europeans are like, but that's what dragons do because we love gold. Whereas eastern dragons are like semi-divine. They're the spirit of rivers. They're like, what need I for gold and riches? I'm a fucking dragon. Whereas Western dragons are like hoard the wealth, hoard the wealth, hoard the wealth.

S: Yeah, they're nouveau riche, you know. Um. Western dragons, they just. They just fucking discovered gold and wealth and, um. Yeah. So, you know, I think also kind of to do with capitalism and hoarding wealth and like, uh, yeah. Because that's kind of what Smaug is, you know? Let's let's do.

F: Some.

S: Let's do some like, uh, contemporary dragons like smog is, you know, um, capitalism gone rampant. What's the dragon in and Game of Thrones.

F: Um awoman's right to choose her own destiny.

S: Yeah, sure.

F: No. Uh, no, I think. I don't know, game of Thrones is such a like. It's clearly about, um. I mean, he he wrote all those books based on European history and like, all the infighting and this and that and this and that. And it is crazy because when you think about in literature, dragons are just this huge amount of power, like this unbeatable amount of power. That's a crazy tool to put into a book. You're kind of like, right, how do you defeat this? It's gotta be something equally amazing and powerful. Um, so I understand why they're kind of almost hard to write in many ways.

S: Unchecked political power is what it is. So good. Good job.

F: You know. Yeah. Bam bam bam bam bam. I'm just smart.

S: Okay. And then one. One more contemporary one. Um, you know, toothless from from how to train your Dragon.

F: Believing in yourself.

S: Well, it's kind of like this post. You know, like, kind of postmodern understanding or, like, let's revisit dragons. Look, they're not really bad, you know? So they're always kind of reflect, like who? Who we are, what we're going through.

F: Companions. Yeah. What are we going through? What to do? Okay, fine. Then what's a dragon for right now, with all the stuff that we as a world are going through? What kind of a dragon?

S: I think I think it's like unchecked political power can be. Can be a good one. You know, Israel with their fucking, um, wraiths, you know, their F-35 death rates.

F: Right? And America with their just like, you get the feeling that they've got all these nuclear weapons that are just massive dragons, just like sleeping in the deserts of New Mexico, waiting to be awoken and like, you know, dive bomb on Russia or whatever they're going to do with them. Oh my gosh. So one of my favorite writers of all time, Terry Pratchett, um, of course, satirizing his his thing was satirizing the modern world, but also through the lens of fantasy. So he was also sometimes satirizing fantasy itself. Uh, and so he wrote a one book in particular that had dragons. He was, of course, to write about dragons. So his big thing was that, like, dragons are so unrealistic even in a world of magic. Like, they're so massive, but they're expected to fly. And so, like, one character kept being like, it doesn't make sense. How does it move like that? Like it's dive bomb. It's moving like a sparrow, and it's fucking huge. How does it not burn its own mouth with its flame? So the most realistic.

S: Good question.

F: Right. The most realistic dragons that he came up with. He was like. Right. An animal that creates fire. Well, the closest thing that we have to that are animals that create high amounts of methane and have multiple stomachs. So in his version, he had swamp dragons. They're very small. They're like the size of a small cat or small dog or a cat. Um, they had multiple stomachs, and they just ate things that created combustion within their stomachs, so they were highly likely to explode. And that was their main defense. It was like a bumblebee, which will only sting you if it absolutely has to, because it'll kill itself. And that's that's what the dragons did. And then, of course, because comedy um, the for one dragon, the whole system was reversed and the flame came out the other end.

S: And I was gonna I was gonna say he missed on.

F: Like, no, oh, no he did not.

S: he was on that shit. Yeah, yeah. There was a farting, farting flame dragon.

F: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

S: So I like it,

F: right, but it's like, of course, you know something that is. So what? A perfect reversal of our image of, like, these big, beautiful, you know, majestic creatures to just like, these horrible little smelly things that explode at will. Love it.

S: Smell like, smell like sulfur.

F: Mhm.

S: Oh yeah. I like the eighteen ninety eight Kenneth Grahame with an E reluctant dragon is like a dragon comes to a village, but he just doesn't want a dragon. He just wants to like kind of chill out and write poetry. But then the villagers are like, no, dude, you're a fucking dragon. You need to fight. And then it's like, but I don't want to fight. And then still they fucking call down Saint George. You know? Saint George comes there and he's like, oh, fucking. I also don't want to fucking fight. So they just like, make a whole spectacle for the for the village. And then, you know, Saint George defeats him without. Oh yeah. Yeah. Without without spilling blood. You know, you can't have sex without spilling blood.

F: I don't.

S: Know, of course.

F: That's that's how. That's how it works.

S: That's how sex works. I've been told. Um. But anyway. So the dragon is invited to the feast afterwards. You know, he's just reluctant. He's a reluctant little dragon and just doesn't.

F: That really sounds like you. You are the reluctant dragon. But instead of, like, burning down a village, it's just any sort of wage labor. Any sort of work?

S I'm sorry. I'm a dragon. I will not be exploited. You know, I don't want to be exploited.

F: Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Um, so one of my favorite dragon stories is it actually comes from Japan. Um.

S: Okay.

F: So basically, there was this monk, young monk. He's walking across Japan. He's, uh, doing a pilgrimage, you know, like monks do. Right. So the monk, uh, this story dates back, by the way, to, like, the eleventh century. Uh, his name is Anchin. And so he's walking around this monk, he comes to this, you know, to this this city, this town. And he goes and hangs out with the head of the town and meets his daughter, um, Kiyohime, or just Kiyo sometimes. So she immediately falls in love with this attractive young monk. And she's like, wow, that's that's the guy. So vows of celibacy. Who? You know what I'm saying? Mhm. Um, and he in some versions of the story he like leads her on a little bit. Some versions of the story, they do engage in a relationship and then he tries to break it off with her. And in other forms of the story he's just sort of like no I'm not into that. I do actually want to be celibate. Basically, he promises that he'll return. He's like, I promise I'll be back, girl, don't you worry. And then just leaves. Just leaves and, like, abandons her. Uh, and she flies into a rage. She is furious at either having been lied to or broken up with or led on whatever it is, and she chases him across. He sort of like gets gets to the river, the Hidaka River. And, uh, he gets, he's like, get let me on this ferry. And don't let that that crazy bitch, she's following me. Don't let her on. And so the ferryman takes him across, and she gets to the edge of the river and jumps in to, like, swim and chase after him. And once she's in the water, her rage transforms her into a dragon. And so she. He, like, gets across, and he's, like, trying to get to the to the temple. And he, like, looks behind him and she comes out of the water just like as a huge dragon. He's like, oh, shit. So he runs to the temple and he tries to hide inside one of the bells, like at the temple that they would ring when it's time for meditation or prayer or whatever. So he hides inside one of the bells. And that bitch fires fire, breathes on that like cast iron bell. And melts it onto him and just burns them alive inside the bell.

S: That's intense. Shit. But a great sculpture. No. Does she like turn it into interpretive art afterwards?

F: Yeah. I think then she goes on to be like a really famous, like, contemporary artist and like, you know, that's like her, you know, most famous piece. Right. I just like I'm really into female rage. I wish if I was angry enough, when I'm really angry, I just cry, which is not particularly helpful and doesn't have the same like, you know, visual effect as, uh, you know, as turning into a dragon and literally flaming somebody to death. That's awesome big fan.

S: But, you know, we can we can we can work with yours also. You know, it could be like poison tears, you know. Poison tears. You take.

F: How do I. Yeah. How do I keep from poisoning myself with my own tears, you know.

S: Oh.You're immune.

F: Oh, I'm immune. I'm immune. Okay.

S: Or like, your tears fall into the ground and then something grows there. I don't know.

F: I like that.

S: Dragons or dragons? Thorn? Thorn bush. You know, you just make thorns wherever.

F: Or just, like, something mildly annoying. Like nettles.

00:38:33 Speaker 2: Nettles. Whenever she cries nettles grow, nettles grow.

F: Everybody's like. Fuck's sake, Frankie. Like God. Pull it together.

S: Why were you fucking crying? Literally in the pub, like, now there's nettles.

F: Nettles everywhere. Everybody's trying to get out. You're getting a little bit stung all the time. So annoying. My therapist's office, just at this point, a garden.

S: Nettles.

F: Nettles.

S: Just nettles. Mhm. Okay, so Drake versus Dragon. What's the fucking Drake a Drake.

F: I don't know, like a small dragon.

S: Yeah, but, like, still the same. Or, like, less powers. Does the Drake become a dragon?

F: Probably less powerful, I don't know, just going off instinct. I feel like a drake is, like, smaller flying. Maybe no fire, you know what I mean? It's more like a flock. Birds. As opposed to, like, an eagle. You know what I mean?

S: Why? Why would Drake use Drake as a name? You know.

F: I mean, it's pretty sick.

S: Why not like Dragon?

F: Because that's too much dragon. It's too.

S I'm dragging the rapper.

F: Yeah, that feels like a lot. Dragon. The rapper.

S: Drake. He's a little Drake.

F: But that's like a name, you know? That's like a real name.

S: Some people are called Drake.

F: Yeah. Americans mainly.

S: Okay. Drake Robinson.

F: Yeah, sure. I'm sure there's a Drake Robinson. Right? So was I right? Are Drake's just smaller dragons?

S: Oh, I didn't know I was, I was asking.

F: Oh.You're just I thought you were like, I've come across this in my. I thought this was a test.

S: Basically I have I have no I have no, um, no research on on Drake's um, which, you know, I'm seeing gaps in my research now as we're talking about.

F: I am I'm also seeing gaps in your personality, but that's a conversation for a separate time. Um, what about, like, uh, have you ever heard of dragons referred to as worms?

S: Worms? No.

F: I think it's mainly like a Germanic thing. Worms or worms? Like.

S: Isn't that kind of like a wyvern?

F: Yeah, I think it kind of comes from a similar. Or maybe it's a Welsh thing. I think it is Germanic though. The like idea of like which brings more to mind the like legless or wingless kind of version of a dragon.

S: Well, I'm seeing now. It's like drakes are earthbound, so.

F: Oh no way.

S: May or may not. May or may not have wings, but still, uh, they are often guarding one location they don't really like, you know, go from place to another. They're just kinda.

F: Same, honestly.

S: They're just kind of. I want to be Drake, you know?

F: That's. Yeah, pretty close to you. To be fair.

S: I have no no treasures to guard. But, you know.

F: Just stay at home.

S: I'll just stay at home and guard nothing.

F: You know, it's not poverty it's just laziness.

S: Absolutely. No. I was thinking, like, um. Yeah, I just saw dragons kind of change their symbols. You know, where nature is dangerous. Dragons are the enemies. You know, when you think nature is sacred. Dragons are caretakers. When like, there's too much accumulation of wealth. Dragons like, sit on top of gold and hoard it. When you know identity is contested, kind of like whales, you know, dragons suddenly become national kind of figures. Where national symbols. Um, yeah. What? What other nations have dragons as their symbol? I think it's whales. Uh, China.

F: China. Um.

S: I think that's kind of about it, actually. Oh, no. Isle of man has those feet. Legs?

F: Yeah, but.

S: I think legs in a circle.

F: Yeah, but that doesn't have anything to do with dragons, does it?

S: No, no it doesn't. No. I said Isle of Man. Then I was like oh no.

F: Oh okay, I see, I see um yeah. I don't know. I just, I still find it so interesting that like, dragons have become a cult of their own. Like a motif, a visual little idea, a symbol, and that, um, we just can't seem to shake. We just feel so connected to this idea of a creature that is bigger, older, wiser, more powerful than us. Like being in the world. It's almost like connected to that sense of of the old version of God, you know, something bigger, stronger, wiser, sometimes dangerous, sometimes benevolent. Um, this thing that is larger than us, we almost, like, crave that thing. So even in, you know, the modern era where maybe a belief in God or a single God in some places is on the decline, you know, a lot of Christian religions, the their membership is on the decline, the belief in dragons or not necessarily the belief, but their representation is still around. Still around everywhere. Like, you know, there's still a hugely popular, um, uh, literary genre fantasy where, like, you think of fantasy, the first thing you think of is dragons.

S: Yeah. You know, Dungeons and Dragons.

F: Um.

S: But also what you were saying before, like, kind of an anti-pagan thing. It's like from ancient Greek times, you know, like Apollo slays, slays the dragon that symbolizes, you know, the kind of, uh, matriarchal older pagan religions. And, you know, it's, uh, it's always a civilizing this, like, chaos versus order, this kind of like shift into rationality always has to do with, like, slaying a dragon. Um, while, you know, other older, non nouveau riche religions, I mean, cultures would, uh, Revere the dragon and coexist somehow.

F: Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to that idea that, like the relationship between man and nature, you've you find in the civilizing of the world that relationship becomes more of a taming. Whereas in older maybe religions or belief systems, which are considered quote unquote uncivilized, that relationship is more of a give and take. So it's like, you know, a small example of that is people who, you know, herd sheep herders in the Caucasus Mountains, even today, sort of recognized that they have to pay a tithe or a tax to the land. And that's going to be a couple of sheep every year that the wolves take. And that's just part of the thing. You, you know, you know, you're going to lose a couple sheep every year because the relationship between land and, and human being is is not one of take take take. And in order to use this beautiful area to like, you know, water and feed your sheep. Yeah. You're gonna have to feed the wolves maybe as well. And I think nowadays, that thought, that thought of like having to give something up that's mine to the land, not to another person, not to a government, just to the forces of nature is something that a lot of people find completely unreasonable. And I think it's one of the things that's stopping wolves from being reintroduced to the UK. But it's also one of the things that I think is stopping our thought process when it comes to solving climate change. People are not willing to give something up for that relationship. And so when it comes to dragons.

S: I want strawberries in fucking December. Frankie.

F: I know you're very passionate about the strawberries in December thing.

S: Don't fuck around with my fucking berries.

F: Well, but how do you feel about hydroponic marijuana can be grown all year round? That's not right. There's a season. There's a harvest season for marijuana as well. Sorry. You can't have one rule for strawberries and another rule for weed.

S: Yeah, I agree. You know, like I think I will be content and sustainable when I have a garden where I grow my own pot and tobacco.

F: Oh, look at you.

S: And I have a donkey.

F: Wow. And your poppy fields.

S: You know, Poppy can be like a once every couple of years. We make we make, like, a little poppy field. Make, you know. Yeah, I don't know, one hundred grams of opium.

F: Yeah.

S: You kind of fuck around with it for a year. Half a year of recovery, then you fucking. Then you grow some poppies again.

F: That's one thing we haven't talked about. Puff the magic dragon.

S: Puff the magic dragon as this representation for weed. I never really understood that, but I.

F: Think I don't know puff the Magic Dragon. You can.

S: You don't know the song Puff the Magic Dragon.

F: It was a song. I think it was first, like it was. I don't know if, uh, Peter, Paul and Mary wrote it. Not the religious figures. The folk band from the sixties. I can see the confusion in your eyes. You were like: Whoa, we're getting some. I didn't know the Bible was this fun.

S: Peter, Paul and Mary had a band.God damn.

F: No, no, no. Um, I don't know if they wrote it. They may.

S: The apostles. They were sorry. I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of the band name. Like, what would it be.

F: Yeah no, no, it'd be like a virgin. One virgin, two dudes, something like that.

S: That's not a good name, Frankie.

F: No. Terrible. But. Yeah. So I think they they at least popularized it. I'm pretty sure the song Puff the Magic Dragon, um. And it was Somehow I don't actually know that much about it. I have done no research. This has just popped into my head as a dragon reference. But yeah, it just became like a reference in that time period of smoke and weed. Puff the Magic Dragon. And I don't know if that was like the purpose of the song. I feel like it kind of probably was. Come on, it was the sixties.

S: Can you give us a rendition?

F: Puff the Magic Dragon lives by the sea. Oh, can't remember the rest of it. That's all I know. He lives by the sea.

S: Also, like when you take harder drugs, it becomes chasing the dragon. No.

F: Does it? I don't know. I don't take drugs.

S: Like if you're. If you're burning some, you know, like crack cocaine or something you know, like you're chasing the dragon.

F: Oh, okay. I'll leave it to your expertise. I think you had to have been smoking that good like Mexican weed to really under from the sixties to. Understand the like puff the magic dragon reference.

S: How about like, um, the flight of the Conchords dragon that burns the Albanian boy.

F: Oh, uh, Albie be the racist dragon.

S: Albie be the racist dragon, you know.

F: Great. If anybody listening to this hasn't seen, um, the TV show flight of the Conchords, uh, created by the band flight of the Conchords. You should watch it.

S: Same name.

F: It's fantastic. It's hilarious.

S: There's the racist dragon and he doesn't get slain. He just burns an Albanian boy, 

F: Albie the racist dragon, and then he stops being racist. Not, I mean, spoiler alert, but yeah. Stops being. Stops being racist.

S: What makes him stop being racist?

F: Uh, the badly burned Albanian boy from the day before came over and was like: Albie the villagers are mean to me too, because I'm so horribly disfigured because of the burning.Or something like that. My favorite part is the little Albanian boy puts his hand on the dragon's tail to, like, comfort him. And the dragon goes, get your hand off my tail.

S: Cause because he's Albanian.

F: And you don't want your hand off my tail, you make it dirty. This is gonna sound like absolute mad ramblings to anybody who hasn't seen what we're talking about, but.

S: Honestly, all the all the podcasts is, um.

F: Did you ever watch? I think it was just called Dragon Tales. It was a TV show when we were kids, animated TV show and two little kids, like brother and sister. They had like a shiny little dragon scale. And then they'd be they'd grab it and they'd like, go into Dragon World or whatever and hang out with the dragons all day.

S: Okay. And what would dragons do in the dragon world? Did they. Like. I know they had, like, fight shit or play cards or.

F: Not. Yeah, they had, like, vaguely. Heartwarming adventures. I think solving problems. It was like, you know, PBS or something like that right after zoboomafoo. Um.

S: So I fucking can't still can't believe that's a thing.

F: I love Zoboomafoo.

S: What a fucking name, bruv.

F: Um, there was another. Oh, there was a Disney film called Pete's Dragon. Have you ever seen Pete's Dragon? This was when the old ones. This was the old ones from, like, the sixties. I think they did remake it, but, like, nobody's ever seen the remake. Basically, it was like, you know, live action sixties. Um, yeah. Everybody's got bowl cuts and shit. But then the dragon was like hand old school animated in the live action bits. Um, and this dragon was fucking hysterical because he talked, but nobody could understand him. He would be like, I. Ah. Like he talked insane. He sounded crazy. And then the kid was just like, that's a good idea, Dragon. And you're like, what? He's just like. You're like, what's happening?

S: By the way, I am cutting that audio clip and it's going to be the start of our podcast. You know? That's how we're gonna start. Let's see who understands Dragon of our listeners. You know, someone must.

F: I'm fluent. Yeah, it's a great one. I really recommend it. But it was just like this big green fat dragon and he was just, like, bopping along. I also haven't seen that in a while. I should rewatch it.

S: There's really like, you know, in the past, I don't know, like fifty, sixty years. It seems like some dragons are kind of cool and scary and shit, but mostly it's like bumbling.

F: Bumbling dragons.

S: You know, they're kind of nice dragons. They don't want to do any shit I've even heard of. Like a story where if you like, get a baby dragon and feed it breast milk, it becomes a cat. It's like it loses its scales and becomes a cat. But you know.

F: That is how that's what happened. That's how I got my cats. Actually. I breastfed them.

S: Stop lying Frankie, you're not breastfeeding anything. I know, yeah. Breastfeeding happening?

F: Uh, you could have breasts for that. Um, yeah, there's a lot of, like. Like Disney. If you look at, like, the Disney Fication of Dragons. I mean, there's Pete's Dragon who just sounds like somebody on, like, the best or worst drugs ever trying to speak to you. There's also, um, sword in the Stone. They have, like, Merlin and, uh, Mad Madam MIM have, like, a wizard's duel, and she breaks the rules and just turns into a dragon, which is awesome. Did I say no purple dragons? Did I?

S: That is a good impression.

F: Thank you. She is one of my heroes, I love her. Um. And then. Yeah, you get things like how to train your dragon. It's a lot of, like, you know, dragons are for kids, and then you're like. I don't think they are. Historically speaking, I think they're pretty brutal and scary.

S: Yeah, brutal and scary also legitimize, you know, like, uh, power over people, you know, that the Chinese emperors are, you know, son of the Dragon King.

F: Oh, yeah.

S: In Game of Thrones, they're blood of the dragon.

F: I love as well. In, in like, uh, in, in Chinese culture, they were like, right. Just dragons for the emperor. Okay. Sometimes other people can also wear dragons, But now it's only the dragons with this number clause. Only for the Emperor. And they just got really specific about, like, the exact look of each dragon. And who was allowed to wear that dragon or not? I was like, yeah, you know what? Good for you, good for you.

S: That's how we roll. How about, like, different kinds of dragons? There's, like, ice dragons. No. Have you heard of any ice dragons? That's just people trying to be edgy, right?

F: I feel like, yeah, in things like with with the proliferation of things like Dungeons and Dragons, which, like, you know, opened up the canon of, um, mythical and fantastical beasts. People were like, are ice dragons? Go, dragons. All kinds of dragons. Um, have you ever seen a sea dragon?

S: Hmm.

F: Well, no. I mean, like the real animal. Sea dragons.

S: Oh, no.

F: They're like. They're like seahorses, but extra. Like, they've got all this stuff on them and they look like coral. They're actually really cool. Um, that's the other thing. Is real life dragons. Komodo dragons. They spawned quite a lot of, like, mythology. I mean, like, they're pretty scary.

S: They say, like, what Marco Polo was describing as dragon was just a crocodile.

F: Well, yeah, I could see that. I mean, if you've never seen a crocodile before, you'd be like, what the. That is exactly what a dragon looks like.

S: Yeah, yeah. There's like there's like logs. They're like as big as a log and then.

F: Ah.

S: But yeah. So, um, just to kind of finish it off of like one Non fantastical uses of like dragons, which would be like, uh, the dragon, a dragon king event. Um, do you know about, like, Black Swan events?

F: Uh, is that where two ballerinas fight to the death?

S: Oh, fuck. Yeah. How did you know?

F: Dude, I knew it

S: No, but in all these, like, kind of, like, prediction things, which I'm into now, because that's what I study. It's like, um, there's always, like, a really random, unforeseeable event. And they call them black swans, right? And they they're kind of like disruptive events that you could have never predicted, like, let's say the, I don't know, port explosion in Lebanon, you know.

F: Like it's just.

S: You you build your economy and your policy in some direction because you had like, I don't know, predictions that the economy will grow or whatever you had, like a notion of how the future was going to look like. and then something big happens that's just really out of nowhere. And they call that a black swan. And so like a rendition of that would be a Dragon King event, which would be something like World War Two or like the two thousand and eight economic collapse, which isn't random, but it's kind of an exacerbation of all the things that were happening, kind of a resonance of events that lead to a bigger event that is unprecedented in scale.

F: Um, so why is it called then, a king dragon? What's the why? Why is that name attached to it?

S: So King Dragon effect is extremely large, exceptional events that are qualitatively different from not just larger examples of smaller events in the system. They're not unpredictable outliers, but they emerge from specific mechanisms that amplify instability. Um, yeah. So it's latent chaos manifests as visible world changing power.

F: So it's like tying it. The symbolism back to that old version of Dragon.

S: Absolutely.

F: Chaos uncontrollable. Which is kind of nice balancing.

S: World changing.

F: Like, you know, cuddly dragon stuff that we've got going on now.

S: Yeah. That's that's it. That's it for me.

F: Well, to wrap up, what do you think the next King Dragon event is gonna be?

S: Oh, it's gonna be World War three. We're like kind of oh, it's almost there. Well, I don't know. For me, uh, the world has already ended. You know, at least my world has already ended. Um, the place that I'm from isn't there? Doesn't exist anymore. It's just a different something. Um, so, yeah, I don't know how much worse it can get, but it will.

F: Uh, yeah.

S: But yeah, it's over. Overspending, oversaturation of power. You know, I think also this, like, exploitation of people is going to at some point spill over into something and they've made a global world, a global exploitative world. And that is going to have a global repercussion. And, you know, when the Soviets took over, they fucking killed every middle class person. So I can't imagine what kind of chaos is going to be unleashed once. Like fucking oppressed and poor people realize that they have power.

F: So, um I think it's going to be a big dragon. I think it's just going to be a literal dragon. I think all those things that you're saying are correct. And are dragons going to be like, you know what? I'm kind of sick of this, and it's just gonna rise up out of, you know, the belly of a volcano or the deepest depths of the ocean.

S: I was gonna going to say volcano also. You know. And the dragon hopefully will be, you know, part of the proletariat. And it's just going  to go.

F: Well, you know, who knows?

S: I will help you fuck up these these fucking exploitative motherfuckers.

F: See, I think a dragon is far more chaotic than that and is just like, you know what? All you bald monkeys have gotta go. I'm just gonna wipe us all out and then be like, all right.

S: Honestly, that warms my heart, you know? Like, if I am to, like, witness the collapse of the world. Like, at least we all die, you know? At least we'll.

F: Be the last.

S: Yeah. The last fucking hairless monkeys to ever exist. I'm. I'm okay with that.

F: Yeah. Same kind of freaky. We don't have any hair.

S: Like. Yeah.

F: Why?

S: We shouldn't exist. I think that's the number one reason we should all be exterminated.

F: Yeah, yeah. Is we're too bald for our own good.