Episode 8: Ghosts

[originally posted to Patreon on 12/12/25]

TRANSCRIPT:

F: Alrighty, welcome back, listener. I'm using the singular because I think it's, like I say every week, I think it's just my mom. Um... Yeah, that's right. We're doing ghosts in our monsters series. Are ghosts monsters? I mean, technically they're spirits. Is that different? What is a monster? Is it just things that scare you? I don't know. Did we already answer that question months and months ago and I just don't listen to myself? 

S: We have not answered that question. Okay. hmm they're like i don't know like unnatural beings beings that you would not um

F: So unnatural beings like every person you've ever dated 

S: yeah and and me 

F: and you like goes with like 

S: abominations 

F: that's true um right so ghosts which we had a bit of a discussion because it is December and we were like is ghosts like is that uh is that a a holiday or a festive topic should we pick something more festive but weirdly I do think ghosts are quite festive I don't know why maybe it's like the old tradition, the old tradition was that you would tell stories at night, you know, while the winter nights are long. That was like the main occupation and ye olden times. And I suppose ghost stories go with that. But I don't know why. Maybe it's just because of the Charles Dickens propaganda that we all must live with. 

S: The Dickens, you know. The Dickens. Fucking dick. yeah um you know kind of every time we try to go we we talk about some sort of uh monsters you know we go oh lots of cultures have this and stuff like that but i don't think like any one of them is as kind of like universal as ghosts i think everyone yeah yeah because everyone kind of believes in a soul or a spirit and then that kind of makes it like yeah, the next logical step is like what if a spirit doesn't leave or like what if a spirit stays behind and yeah everyone fucking 

F: believes in ghosts well I remember one time i was doing research for a book and I asked you about like within the muslim faith do is there ghosts like is that something that people believe you said something about like this spirit not really because this spirit stays in the grave until judgment day is that right 

S: Yeah, that's true. But like, again, it's like maybe the overall religion doesn't believe in that. But like, you know, people do like people always believe in ghosts. Like, yeah, you'd call it like spirits, you'd say there are spirits in that house or something like that, you know. And it always seems to have like, you know, no happy ghosts stay behind. There's always something to do with like being unhappy or something being a violent death or an unresolved thing, you know? Yeah. Do you believe in ghosts? 

F: Um, I don't know. It's kind of a hard one because I have heard lots and lots of ghost stories. I've been in places that are supposedly quite haunted. I've got a story a little bit later about that. But I personally have never experienced anything. But then like, you know, my husband has experienced stuff. And like, I know there are people who have. But it's very funny that I like, particularly me and my mom's family, quite a lot of us will be in places where Like, usually there'll be a group of us in a place that's supposed to be haunted, and there'll be no activity whatsoever. And we'll just be like, right, well, are we the ghosts? Did we, like, haunt this place for a little while? Like, I don't know. Maybe there's just something about our, like, psychic or spiritual brainwaves. They're like, no, those people are too freaky for us. We'll just haunt the weak-minded. 

S: But like if... When you're in a haunted place, you know, once you know that it's haunted, I think there's more of a probability of you thinking something or feeling freaked out or... 

F: So here's my example. There's a house in my hometown called Seagate and it's very, very old. It's from like when the town used to be called Beals Landing and it was an old, you know, Wild West town or whatever. And it was built, I think it was, I mean, I don't remember the history that well. I think it was built by like some relatively wealthy guy. And the rumor, the myth goes that upstairs in the small bedroom was, both of his children died from typhoid or some shit. Or yellow fever. One of those old-timey diseases. And that the spirits of the children are haunting the house. The house has been a guest house for many, many years. And there's a guest book there, so a collection of some of my relatives, aunties, uncles, and cousins have owned the house for many years and rented it out. and um there's the guest book so like you know people write in it and there will be so there's so many accounts of people being like having experiences with the ghosts I've been in that house so many times like from the time I was a very very small child I've had birthdays there and we as children would like freak each other out like we would lock each other in the stairs that went up but to the you know the bedroom i've slept in that bedroom but we'd like lock ourselves in there and you know lock your younger siblings in there and like make them cry and be like the ghost's gonna get you classic childhood fun and i've never still never like really experienced anything and so many of the entire family have like been there overnight by ourselves whatever and not experienced anything but then so many other people will like you know read the guest book and hear read stories about the ghosts of these two little kids and like i think there was one point some people were like oh the little girl like she even followed us down to the beach and started throwing stones at us um they're apparently like one of the ghosts is like quite is like the little girl she's like the older sister i think and she's kind of a cunt and then the little brother is uh just like kind of sad i think not really too scary 

S: she's a typhoidy cunt isn't 

F: she little typhoid bitch but yeah so that's a you know an example of like so many people have experienced it and i just been in there known it's haunted my whole life and never once yeah experienced anything 

S: How about like you said your husband believes in ghosts. Like what kind of ghosts does he believe in? 

F: So he, well, he had an experience. I don't think he like was a firm believer that much. But then he had an experience at this old house in Ireland called Tyrone Guthrie. It's like a residency, writer's residency. And the first time he went, he was there. And he got put like, you know, in the ghost's room, of course. And he said he had an experience of like, of pressure on his chest and like a presence being in the room. He couldn't move. He was like awake, but sort of had this paralysis. He was very aware of her presence in the room. He sort of describes it much better than I do. Yeah. I mean, like it sounded like that, but also he kind of, he explains it much better. I didn't experience it. It sounds like something else, you know, when he talks about there being this presence, uh, like the whole time it kind of lasted the rest of the time, even if he, he had sort of like one night of a real like experience and then felt this energy kind of the rest of the time. Um, so yeah. What about you? Do you, have you ever had any ghost experiences? 

S: No, I don't think I have, but I'm like a scaredy stoner, I'd say. Like when I'm stoned, I'm very impressionable. Like if I watch a horror film or something, I'll get scared. So if I'm somewhere on my own or if I know that there's something there, I'll just be jittery. 

F: Be a little spooked out, yeah. 

S: Yeah, I'll just be spooked out, but I've never like actually, you know, because like what are the common ghost experiences? It's like feeling a presence, change in temperature, sounds here and there, you know, things moving without anyone touching them. um uh yeah i guess that's kind of it right for for how you experience ghosts

F: lights going on and off that kind of stuff yeah i've never actually 

S: i've never actually experienced something like that where i was like oh there's something that happens that happened that i cannot explain it's just that i'm just scared and even if i'm just like on my own at home and i've watched something yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah 

F: I'm to be fair I'm the same way I've never liked scary movies I've never like I've never experienced anything but the flip side of that is I feel like I have a very impressionable psyche and I don't like scary movies at all I won't watch them I will then I will like guaranteed have nightmares um so yeah 

S: I don't really have nightmares it's It's in my like awake life that, you know, it's like I'm taking a shower and I like can't close my eyes. It's like someone's going to come through the fucking. Yeah. I don't know why, but it does happen. It happens less when I'm not stoned. 

F: Well, yeah, that would, that makes sense, I think. A little paranoia. 

S: But yeah, it's like, I don't know, it seems like a manifestation of fear of death, right? 

F: Yeah, but it's always about like dying, leaving some things behind. Unfinished business, you hear that so much. It's like dying and leaving something behind. 

S: well i guess that's it it's like afraid of like because you know the world is just so apathetic and stuff that we tend to like want to have meaning to it it's like oh you die and even though it was the worst death and it was very unfair nothing's gonna happen and i don't think we can wrap our head around that so we always kind of Yeah, and I think also kind of similar to vampires, a lot of the talk about ghosts and stuff has to do with, like, death rights and funeral rights. And I don't know why fucking all cultures are so obsessed with that. And it's always the ghosts is there because, you know, they didn't get the proper rights or there was something, you know, some, like, injustice was done to them and you need to, like, make the spirit... rest by, you know, getting the justice for it or... Yeah.

F: I don't know. I think it goes back to loads of societies wondering that or believing that there's something on the other side of death. And so something to do with those burial rites of like, right, it's a big change. It's a transformation. We have to get it right because we don't know what happens on the other side. And if we don't get it right, who's to say that they will go to the other side and they won't just like, come back I think it's kind of you know it it's it relates um to birth traditions as well it's kind of like the reverse there's a big change something's entering or or leaving and if you don't do these certain things then you know you're setting somebody up for failure for success or whatever 

S: And it's like the people who stay behind are the ones who are worried about it. You know, the dead people don't give a fuck. It's like, I don't give a fuck. 

F: Did you know that the Celts, ancient Celts, not like modern Celts, but ancient Celts, they ranged, you know, all the way across Europe, but they believed that... Basically, that, like, the reason why they were so fearsome in battle, I mean, I'll asterisk this with, like, all of the contemporary reports we have about the Celts slash the Gauls were written by Romans who were racist towards them. So, you know, take everything with a pinch of salt. But they say that one of the reasons why... they were so fearsome in battle and would go into battle like without armor and they were very unafraid of death was because they believed that the life that they were living was the afterlife. And once they died, they were going into like the real world. And so it was like a reversal of like, this is death. This is the afterlife. This is whatever, whether you think it's heaven or hell. But once I die, I then it's not I'm not going to heaven. I'm going into the real world. And so like if I die in battle, if I have an honorable death or whatever, I'm going to have a good life for the next life. 

S: That sounds like a K hole to me. I feel like that whenever. Everything I've lived was not real and I'm going into real life now. 

F: But you're right, it has such an importance in the afterlife cycles. There's the Greek story of Sisyphus. He's the one that like famously has to push the rock up the hill in Hades. And then if he gets to the top, he gets to have eternal life. But every time when he gets close to the top, it just rolls back down. But he's got a massive story about how he tricks death several times. And one time, he convinces his wife after he's like, when I die, like death is going to come. I can't trick him anymore. Leave my body out in the street. Let the dogs and the crows and the carrion birds like pick apart my flesh. Really treat me like shit after I'm dead. And he uses that treatment. He goes down to the queen of the underworld to Persephone and goes, look, I've been so mistreated. And look at my body. Oh, my God, they're doing horrible things. Let me go back to the real world and I will. They're dishonoring you by dishonoring my dead body. Let me go back and right this wrong. And then he gets to go back to life again. So, yeah, there's something about that, like ghosts somehow tie into that belief that like what happens here affects what happens there. 

S: And that, like, even after you're dead, you can still affect the world. It's like, you know, if, let's say, I don't know. just as an example, you know, if someone is, I don't know, imprisoned and being tortured, you know, and they like, if that was happening to me, I definitely start believing that like, I will come back and haunt the people who tortured. It's like, it's like the, the last kind of remnants of, of any kind of agency is like a belief of like some sort of supernatural agency after death, because like you couldn't do anything in your physical body to write the things that were done to you, you know? Yeah, have you ever heard of, like, ghosts with, like, smells? You know, because we were saying how you recognize kind of ghosts. 

F: Smelly ghosts? That sounds very funny. 

S: and it's like it ranges from being like funny to just being like you know uh oh this there's this lady and like you can smell i don't know like some sort of flower that was on her grave like when when the ghost comes or something that yeah so smell i was just kind of adding to what we had started with before you know changes in temperature lights flickering 

F: yeah yeah all that other stuff 

S: smell it's kind of a strange one i think 

F: Yeah, I mean, I suppose it makes sense because think about like all those other senses. It's sort of, there are things that you, they're all like, not necessarily secondary senses because you can see stuff like the lights turning on and off or whatever, but it's about like feeling a presence, you know, feeling the temperature change, hearing strange things, but there's no like, it's not like all five senses are engaged at once. to, like, confirm if something is there or not. Every sense is like, oh, I smell lilacs or whatever. Can you imagine, though, if you were a ghost and your, like, ghost smell was just terrible? You're like, I smell cat shit. God damn it. Sari, he's haunting us again. 

S: This stinky ghost is back. I just smell like farts all the time. 

F: Yeah, I mean, you know, what a way to leave a mark in the afterlife. 

S: Yeah, that's true. But yeah, it's crazy that like people do believe in ghosts, you know, like depends on the place also. But like, let's say like in Taiwan, like 87% of people believe in ghosts. In America, it's like 65%. 29% of Americans have said that they felt the presence of someone who's died after their death. 

F: Oh, that was just the death of freedom and liberty. That's what they were feeling. It was like the death of democracy falling around them. Yeah, that's... You know what? Spaces always attract ghosts because ghosts haunt so many things. You know, it's like old houses, obviously. 

S: That's true. They're bound to a space, you know? 

F: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then one space I find interesting that they haunt quite a lot are theaters. Theaters always have ghosts. There's this theater I worked at in Oregon, and they said that Charlton Heston haunted... one of the theaters. You might recognize him from the original Planet of the Apes. Get your hands off me, you damn dirty apes! 

S: Oh, really? He haunted the fucking... 

F: It was something like he died before he could do a play that he was cast in or something like that. So supposedly he haunted it. But I was like, you know what? I can't imagine being worse than a theater being haunted by some old white guy who spent half of his films just slapping the sense into women. That does sound pretty bad. 

S: It's the only way to treat women, Frankie. 

F: Slap some sense into them. You damn dirty apes. 

S: But also like, you know, again, it does have to do with like what times you're living in, you know, like because when all this kind of spiritualist stuff started in like America and England in the like Victorian age, it became like oh it's not something to be afraid of it's like how you can contact your dead relatives for some money you know and it's always for some money absolutely mediums and also you know the idea of like um ghosts and having to repay a debt came in it's like because like you can die but you have to fucking pay pay the money your children have to pay it or you're dead but you need to repay the money you owe us you motherfucker. And it's led to like quite some funny ones. I was just looking at like, you know, ghosts. And then have you heard of scratchy fanny? 

F: I have heard of it, but there is like a cream that you can put on and it's fine. 

S: yeah exactly that's what they did to scratchy fanny but it's like and it's it's almost like someone's written this just to fuck with me you know it's like because it's the cock lane ghost you know that ghost lived on cock lane her name was fanny and she used to scratch to communicate so it's scratchy fanny on cock lane 

F: you made this up. We're not that desperate for content. You don't have to make up ghost stories about scratchy fannies and cocks. Sari. You don't have to do that. You can tell the truth. 

S: It's scratchy fanny, man. And look, it's like even it's in 1762. And the whole town of London thinks about nothing else, writes Horace Walpole. You know, even Charles Dickens referred to her in A Tale of Two Cities. You know, scratchy fanny, man, on Cock Lane. 

F: You know what? Let's talk about Charles Dickens. Let's talk about that guy. Because I think... He contributes quite a lot to, like I mentioned before, why I connect ghosts with Christmas. But when you think about it, they weren't ghosts. They were the spirit of Christmas past, Christmas present, Christmas future. They weren't actually ghosts. They were referred to as ghosts. The only real ghosts were... was Marlo what was the name Jonathan Marley his friend Marley I can't remember what his real name is because all I think about is Muppet Christmas Carol and it's my two favorite Muppets the ones that are like the theater critics going we're Marley and Marley so that's I don't remember his real name all my references are Muppets by the way but yeah he i feel like really defined that like spooky ish christmas story for the modern age modernish

S: Yeah and it's he did live in a time where it was like all these mediums and shit were like knocking about, you know and it was it's just so weird this age you know like what do you know about ectoplasm 

F: um i think it's referenced quite a lot in the um documentary ghostbusters and that's it 

S: but anyway so it was it was this like substance that the mediums would use to like communicate with the spirits and

F: whatt?? That’s what it is?

S: Yeah. And mostly like from, you know, people who try to like disprove them. It's like they either vomit out something. 

F: Disgusting. 

S: I know. And there's even one like reference of like... a lady medium hiding you know stuff in her fanny and it's just like you'd like

F: it's ectoplasm i mean i thought it was ghost jizz but it's just normal jizz that they're jizz and vom 

S: it's jizz and vom you know you have something like the one who was vomiting it turned out to be like she'd eat like um like newspapers and like newspapers and then she just like vomited out and it'll all be like sticky and shit and they'll be like oh look this is the ectoplasm 

F: disgusting victorians are so weird 

S: and then everyone was so into it and everyone go to these seances and fucking communicate with the dead and shit like that and it's just And now, you know, it's just become entertainment because that's what, you know, our kind of capitalism is. And it's just like haunted tours, haunted places, staying in haunted houses. 

F: I work in Edinburgh. You want to talk about the capitalism of ghosts? There's like a million and a half haunted ghost tours of Edinburgh that happen all the time, every day. Oh, my God. And it's always like some poor, like, acting school dropout in, like, Victorian, shitty Victorian garb, like, doing these tours. I mean, respect to them. 

S: Your husband, then. 

F: I've been a tour guide. Yeah, how dare you? He doesn't wear a costume. I mean, respect to the... Not that anybody is going to listen to this, but apologies to those people. Respect. I've been a tour guide before. But... Like, it's just a weird... Because if you think about the history of being, like, a medium, of being a person, usually women, historically, in, like, Western practices. I don't know about the rest of the world. But it's that connection between this world and the afterlife. It's the same as the midwife. Like, you are the person ushering people in or ushering people out. And maybe you're the seer. Maybe you're the... diviner maybe you're just a wise woman but you're somebody that can communicate between the worlds using cards or runes or um scrying bowls or something like that but it was a it was not just like a religious or spiritual position and it wasn't somebody who accepted money in quite a lot of these practices um particularly in western europe you were not allowed to accept money Like, it was anti-capitalist. You provided these things for the benefit of the community. And in response, you know, the community would make sure that you had enough firewood or had some food or, like, it was called communal care. And that tradition goes back, I mean, in the Norse tradition, which is 1300 years ago, they believed in the Norns, which were... Three women who... Three female deities that would, like, spin the lives of man. And then their sort of human counterparts who were called the Vulva. Nice. Nice, right? Vulva. Right. Yeah. They would... They would tap into... Basically, their job was to tap into the weird, which is, like, the... It's almost like... It was explained to me, like, the network of mycelium... throughout the universe it connects everything but underneath the roots of the great like world tree and so they would tap into that weird and they would be able to like pick up hints of what the norns were spinning and that is so like that's such a that's such a different completely um I don't know, beautiful and honest way of looking at mediumship. And then you get to the fucking Victorians and they're like, we'll do it for money. We'll do everything for money. We love money because we are Victorians and we're freaks. 

S: You want to talk to your dead father? Give me some money. 

F: Oh, your young man died during the war with Napoleon? Give me some money and I'll tell you what he says. Nothing good. 

S: He says he loves you. 

F: He loves you. Give me some money. 

S: He says he loves you and he loves me. So give me money. 

F: but yeah i mean i think that this i think taking away sort of the bastardization that the victorians put on it this role between women and and the communing with the afterlife which you see in like you know the triple goddess she's the maiden uh she's the mother but she's also the crone and everything in death goes into her cauldron and so if you need to you know you do you know you need access to the cauldron you gotta talk to the old woman 

S: yeah but we've bastardized it more now we have like people going around with like infrared cameras and fucking I don't know like those measurement devices for radiation and you know like temperature like heat to heat cameras and going oh look I found this and then like making fucking reality TV shows about going to haunted places and like You know, it's just you never find anything. They just like, oh, look, it's colder here. And it's like, yeah, the window's fucking open, motherfucker. It is colder. There's no, I don't know, there's no like fascination or fear. It's just like some people looking for, I don't know, like a kick or like it's entertainment. It's purely entertainment. 

F: Yeah. I don't know. I think those people always give off, like, a virgin energy. You know what I mean? You're like, come on. Hang out with the living. Jesus Christ. But it's not just that. We've got, like, people who are famous mediums. I mean, it's obviously a massive thing. Much bigger thing in the U.S. Where it'll be like... You know, there's so many... One of the famous ones that comes to mind is the Long Island medium. And she's just this woman from Long Island, almost stereotypically. And she's like a famous medium. Or there's people that are like, I would... Like, how hard is it to commune with the dead as a medium... And to transfer those skills over to being, like, a dog psychic. You know what I mean? Like, animal psychic. Those two things feel related, no? Could you be, like, a dead dog psychic? Like, a dead dog medium?

S: But, you know, like, what would you say? Like, woof, woof? You know? Like, how would you... 

F: Well, what do animal psychics say now? They're like, oh, Fido feels very upset.

S:  I don't know. Is there something like that? 

F: Yes, of course. It's like a massive industry because people in America spend a lot of money on their pets. And they'll be like, I don't know. I just think, you know, I just think Rufus is really upset with me. I'm going to get the animal psychologist psychic in here. And then the psychic runs our hands over the dog. And they're like, she's really upset with you, feeling a lot of resentment because you moved her bed. And that's why she's been vomiting in your shoes. And they're like, well, thank you. Here's a thousand dollars. 

S: fucking Americans are just like asking to be robbed, you know? 

F: To be scammed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we do it to ourselves. 

S: Do you know any like animal ghosts? Is that like a thing? 

F: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I think the biggest, probably one of the most famous ones that you see quite a lot is like the hellhound kind of vibe, which is somewhere between like a demon and a ghost, because sometimes it will be like... you know, the wolf, the spirit of the last wolf of the UK, of Britain, that was killed. And there's like so many places around the UK where they're like, oh, the spirit of that wolf still runs through the woods or whatever. Or it'll be like, oh, if you've seen, you know, the ghost of a big black dog on a full moon, it means you're going to die. Or, you know, there's a lot of folklore around dogs, I think. I think cats you don't get as much because in real life they're just spooky. They're like, we don't need to be ghosts. We are portentous without having to die. Also, like, I don't know, what would be a funny animal? Like, birds? Yeah. like a parrot, you'd be like, this is a ghost. Although that sounds like a nightmare. My aunt had an evil parrot. And if she came back as a ghost, I probably, yeah, that would convince me. And I would probably die of fright if I saw her. Um, I don't know. Like what other things? Rodents don't seem ghost worthy. 

S: I don't know any, any, um, animal ghosts really. 

F: Um, I mean, like, maybe I have a feeling that there's something to do with it. Not ghosts per se, but like this spirit of animals. Maybe more to do in like Native American traditions or Aboriginal traditions. But I don't know enough about those traditions to say. 

S: And it'll be like a generic animal, you know, like it'll be the spirit of the wolf. It wouldn't be the spirit of this one wolf. You know? 

F: I mean, I don't know is the thing I can't say because I don't know because I'm a white lady. In case anybody was confused about that. But, like, I think there's... It's hard because I feel like there's a line between ghost and the spirit of a thing. And the spirit of a thing doesn't necessarily have to have been tied to a real... person or a real thing it could just be like the metamorphic idea you know the truest version of the last american buffalo but was it attached to the body of a real buffalo at some point i don't know so yeah i don't know i what is the line between spirit and a ghost Yeah, 

S: I don't know. I think like a spirit is... Yeah, are they synonyms or... What's the difference between a spirit and a soul even? 

F: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like, is a ghost a soul? Is your soul angry? Is your soul... I mean, like this then leads us into the whole question of like, what is a soul? What the fuck are we talking about when we're talking about ghosts? Is it like... Like, would it be more like a lino print of a person's soul? Like, you're not getting the real thing. You're just sort of getting an impression of it left in the... I think... You know, in this world. 

S: I think, like, if we're actually talking about what we think and not, like, what the beliefs are, I think, like, a ghost is... imprinted on your memory. If you've wronged someone, you feel like you're being haunted by the memory, the presence of them. If you've wronged someone, if you've robbed someone, if you've let if like your actions have led to someone's death or like hurt then it kind of stays with you and and like that kind of ghost like that kind of lingering stuff i think i can get behind like i i understand i think that's that stays

F:  isn't that just like your conscience

S:  Something like that. So I think that's kind of what ghosts are. 

F: Well, in that case, there's a couple people that I hope I'm haunting right now. You know who you are. 

S: Yeah, you probably are, you know? 

F: God, I hope so. I feel like... So I've always kind of believed, like, not so much in a soul, in, like, a religious way, because religion is dumb. So I was about it. But more in the sense of, like... One of the tenets of physics, one of the first things that you learn is that energy can never be created or destroyed. And we utilize, create, and expend energy all the time. That's why we have to eat, that's why we sleep, whatever. But we, at our core, are made up of energy. So when we die, where does that go? I don't, like, I feel like in anything I've ever talked to people about or heard about death. where does that life energy go? Because it doesn't just like disappear. It doesn't get burned away. It doesn't get used up. It just goes for various reasons. So if it goes, you know, some of it goes back, theoretically back into the earth. If you get buried and, you know, other things eat you and, and, and gain calories from you and burn energy that way. 

S: But that's not life energy. That's just your like physical body. 

F: Well, That's what I mean is, like, that doesn't really sound like it makes the most sense to me. But then, like, you know, where does that life energy go? Does it just dissipate into the universe, go back into the weird, back into that, like, mycelium network? So then it can't just be destroyed. It can't just, like, be gone forever. So to me, that feels like a version of a spirit. And maybe you don't, that energy doesn't like, it's not like a mass that stays together. If it dissipates, then little bits of your spirit end up, you know, everywhere as like energy coming off the sun or as, you know, whatever this, that, and the other. That to me feels like the closest thing to what a spirit might be. But I don't think it stays together in a personality. You know what I mean?

S: I think we're just like, I don't know, to make it crude, like digitized. You know, like we go from a physical being to just data that could be in people's memories, that could be an imprint of what we've left behind or something like that. So I think that, yeah, we're just going through a digitizing process. 

F: hmm but like see even that to me doesn't completely like make sense because how does the energy from within me transfer to your memories when i die 

S: what kind of what kind of energy are you talking about 

F: I sort of mean like, yeah, the sense of where does all the energy in our body, we have energy within us that makes our organs move, that makes our, you know, makes our brain work. 

S: That's kind of like metabolism and like kind of calories. Yeah. You're talking about like how you burn calories. 

F: Kind of. Maybe, maybe I just don't know enough about it. But like the sense of like your life's energy, what keeps you going? I mean, we don't know why life ends outside of things like disease or injury or whatever. People die of old age and we just kind of, without there being any like disease, and we just kind of go like, well, they just died of old age. Their body just like ran out of energy. of juice 

S: we do have an aging we do have an aging gene you know like they usually like old age would be like some sort of organ failure i'd say 

F: yeah but that is to me like a disease you know i mean when you die of old age you don't you don't die of organ failure organ failure comes from like a cause your heart has been used so much that now it is damaged and gives out 

S: Yeah, I tend to think that that's the only way people die, but I might be wrong. 

F: I don't know. Maybe I'm just making it all up. But to me, I don't know. There's I had one experience on mushrooms where I went to another place and I met the divine feminine energy that like connects everything in the universe. And I was like, I think I just go back to being my energy just goes back to being a part of that, like network, that bigger part of something. And then some of my energy maybe will come back and be a baby. I don't know. Or maybe it won't. 

S: I do think we reconnect with the bigger blob of energy, information. I don't know what it is. 

F: For you, it's just like the motherboard you get plugged back in. 

S: It's not like a motherboard. It's like, you know, I don't know. Let's say when you look at something. Yeah, there's like photons getting reflected off that thing and hitting your like corneas, right? And so the actual photon like dissipates the energy after it hits the cornea, but the image stays, right? So that's kind of your eyes turning something physical into something that's just an idea in your head. And I feel like that is, yeah, something along those lines is what happens with us. Like the experiences that you felt, the things that you felt somehow stay imprinted onto the universe without your physical body. I know it sounds vague, but it's kind of like, yeah, I don't know how the mechanics of that work, but it's... yeah 

F: look when you get down to the brass tacks of any spiritual belief everybody's like it sounds vague and i don't know what the details are but that's just what vibes for me 

S: that's what ketamine gave me man you know 

F: wow and mine came from mushrooms oh my god that really sums up our personalities i feel like 

S: we did some psychedelics at some point and then that's just it 

F: Ooh, the takeaway from this is do psychedelics. 

S: I think so too. I think it's a good takeaway. I think it's good. I think it's good for people to do. 

F: I feel like we still don't know what ghosts are, but I really love that almost everybody, every culture in the world have heard of ghosts, have some relationship to the idea of ghosts, or have some belief in ghosts. And our obsession with death comes in this form of like, what if my physical body was gone, but I was still here? Love that. Good for us. 

S: Yeah. Yeah. I think so, too. Yeah. And I'd like to close it off. Why do you think... What do you think of this, like, sheet ghost, you know, like, white sheet ghost?

F: I mean, aesthetically, I love it because I like the idea of somebody, like, in a sheet. But they're always, like, pure, like, white and clean. But I think it would be funny if you're like, this one's, like, my sheet's kind of stained. Yeah. Um, cause one time I, yeah. Or like, you know, I was hung over and I kind of vomited on my sheet, but then like, this was the sheet that I kind of got assigned. I'm like, what do you do? I like that. Um, I think it has something to do with it. You know what? To be actually, to be serious about it for a minute. I think it's calling to mind the, like, death shroud, isn't it?

S: I think that's literally it. 

F: Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I think the aesthetic is cute. It's really cute aesthetic. I was thinking something else, but I can't remember it. Right. What would your sheet look like? 

S: What would my sheet look like? It'll have, like, cigarette burns in it. 

F: A hundred percent where your eyes are supposed to be. It's just two cigarette burns. 

S: And, and everywhere kind of, there's like little cigarette burns everywhere, you know? Definitely. Oh my God. If I was a ghost, I would smoke all the time. Yeah. My ghost smell would be like tobacco and weed.

F: yeah a little hash a little hash jay i think um my sheet would be it would probably known me be like a fun color or like a crazy print or

S: like a tie-dye 

F: yeah maybe a tie-dye sheet um and then like Yeah, something probably spilled on it because I am quite clumsy. It'd be like red wine spilled on it and you're like, you kind of only notice if you really look at it, but the rest of the time you think it's just like part of the tie-dye pattern. 

S: And then your smell would be like marinara because you're Italian. 

F: Wow, that's verging on racism, but Italians are not a race, so never mind. No, my smell would probably be... uh not like it wouldn't be like patchouli you know what it would be i fucking love anything with the smell like like candles and stuff with the smell of sea salt in it it's such a nice like sharp fresh smell so i wouldn't smell like the ocean No, no, there's a difference because the ocean smells like fish poo at low tide sometimes. And I'm not about that sea salt freshness. Sea salt. 

S: Okay. Fresh sea salt. Sometimes a bit of fish poo. No. Just a little bit. 

F: or like the the like that nice smell that you get in a really mossy forest right after it rains everything's like kind of peaty and nice that's that's a good smell as well

S: what is that called like um it has a penta penta penta core or something that is what it's called 

F: Right, well, I wish, I hope, you know what? Last thing, last thing. I hope that the ghosts aforementioned in Charles Dickens' timeless classic visit you, but they're not the ghosts of, like, Christmas past, present, and future. They're the ghosts of trips past, present, and future. And I do mean drug trips. 

S: I like that. 

F: That's what I wish for you. 

S: I wish that when I die, I will haunt you forever. 

F: You will. You haunt me now. So that's fine. I love this. 

S: My spirit is projected. 

F: It's also rejected. Right. Never know how to end this. Thanks for listening. Okay, bye. Bye. 

S: Bye, ghost. Woo.